Most people get it: blunting climate breakdown means ditching fossil fuels. Which is inconvenient for the men and women who dig up, drill, refine, ship, burn, market or otherwise earn their living from those fuels. People with mortgages and kids and bills to pay.

Tree-huggers like us may think a low carbon economy sounds just spiffing, but for a lot of people it probably sounds a like a P45. What do to? Does Spain have the answer?

We chew this all over, including what’s meant by the – it turns out – entirely straightforwardly termed ‘just transition’.

Also this week: guff from the UK’s finance minister, and monumentally catastrophic ‘everything’s dying’ news from animal world. Lolz.

Sustainababble is your friendly environment podcast, out weekly. Theme music by the legendary Dicky Moore – @dickymoo. Sustainababble logo by the splendid Arthur Stovell.

MERCH: sustainababble.teemill.com

Available on iTunes, Spotify, Acast, Soundcloud & all those types of things, or at sustainababble.fish. Visit us at @thebabblewagon and at Facebook.com/sustainababble. Email us at hello@sustainababble.fish.