Chess Grandmaster Jonathan Rowson won the British Championship three times and has been the no.1 player in Scotland for basically ever. He’s so clever, he’s got a PhD in ‘Wisdom’. That sounds like a joke but it isn’t.

Jonathan has written extensively about what it is in our heads and our societies that stops us being wiser, and is director of Perspectiva, an organisation that inspires Important People to examine real world problems with a deeper appreciation of the influence of our inner worlds. Problems like climate change, which is a principal theme in his new book, The Moves That Matter.

So, fresh from an election all-nighter (this was recorded on 13 December), Dave and Ol try to conduct a conversation with a stupendously clever human all about philosophy, psychology and climate change. In addition – and why the hell not – Dave decides to **play** Jonathan at chess while conducting the interview. You can see how that went, move by move, here:

Sustainababble is your friendly environment podcast, out weekly. Theme music by the legendary Dicky Moore – @dickymoo. Sustainababble logo by the splendid Arthur Stovell. Ecoguff read out by Arabella.

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